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#21 2005-06-18 22:04:40

tomtobias
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Registered: 2005-06-15
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

P486
PUBLIC FFT01
_TEXT128 SEGMENT BYTE PUBLIC USE16 'CODEFFT1'
ASSUME CS:_TEXT128,DS:_DATA
FFT01a  PROC
push bp
mov bp,sp
les si,dword ptr[bp+16]
sub sp,1536
mov bp,sp

movsx eax,word ptr es:[si+0]
movsx ebx,word ptr es:[si+1280]
mov ecx,eax
add ecx,ebx
sub eax,ebx
mov [bp+0],ecx
mov [bp+48],eax

I wrote it 15 years ago.  I am not proud of it.  I am not providing this as evidence of my prowress in programming, on the contrary, I show it simply  to demonstrate that I can generate CODE with the best of them.  CODE:  NOT something readable.  Not something comprehensible.  Not something obvious.  Not something CLEAR, NOT A PROGRAM.  This snippet of code is fuzzy isn't it?  It's not sharp.  Not delineated.  What is this guy trying to accomplish?  THIS CODE IS OBSCURE.  Would you waste your time trying to figure it out?
I wouldn't.  OF course, Axel is correct, one can write CODE in ANY language, including Assembly.  He mentioned Cobol, with which I have no experience, but his argument is equally valid for every language.  I have written lots of CODE in many languages, especially C.  I have written VERY FEW PROGRAMS, in any language.  Writing a program is a work of art.  I lack that kind of skill.  I am a hacker, sloppy, undisciplined, unable to think ahead to optimize program execution, as a skillful chess player would do, unable to design data structures like a prescient novelist, unable to generate a suitable algorithm to explain the concept.  So, I gain satisfaction reading programs written by others, something akin to listening to a great sonata by Prokofiev or Grieg or Schubert, or, regarding a terrific canvas by Bruegel, Hiroshige, or Dali.  Those of us who cannot compose music, or paint or draw, must derive our satisfaction from admiring the skill of others....In addition to being inept at painting and composing music, I am unskillful in the realm of computer programming, as this snippet of CODE, should have illustrated.  regards, tom

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#22 2005-06-18 22:30:02

tomtobias
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

bubach wrote:

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what the heck
you wrote above.. tongue

Yes, and Dennis also had difficulty.  Seems that my writing is also a kind of code:  I can understand it, but no one else can.
Do you know of the MORSE CODE?  This was the method used in the 19th century to send telegrams.  Sort of the first instant messaging. 
QUALITIES of a CODE:  a secret, i.e. not generally understood, method of communication.
QUALITIES of a PROGRAM:  VERY CLEAR, EVIDENT, ANYONE can appreciate and understand at once what is going on and why.
CODE is written to PREVENT understanding,
PROGRAMS are created to ENSURE comprehension.
To the general public, ALL computer programming is mysterious, enigmatic, CODE.
However, to the computer literate public, i.e. those who have made some effort to understand the fundamentals of programming (DATA STRUCTURES plus PROGRAM FLOW), there exists TWO methods of solving a problem:
1.  write code;
2.  write a program.
Advantages of writing CODE:  QUICK, INEXPENSIVE, OFTEN fast in execution.
DISADVANTAGES of writing CODE:  DIFFICULT to modify, a day, a week or a year later, AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, very difficult to work on as a TEAM of folks all trying to work on components which then fit together at the end.
Advantages of writing a PROGRAM:  Everyone understands what he/she is trying to accomplish, and precisely how a particular problem will be solved.  ANyone can come along a year later, and understand why a particular data structure exists in the format in which it was found.  For example, Dennis, and Dex and Bubach all have a problem with booting up: (my keyboard locks up when I use my KVM switch with these new OS).   How to fix this problem?  It is not easy, if the boot section is CODE.  It is much easier to repair, if the boot section is written as a PROGRAM.
Disadvantages of writing a PROGRAM:  The individual must yield to the group.  One must CONFORM to a particular programming style, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.  Individualists hate this.  They want to spiel an der Klavier, creating impromptou programs on the fly, not work from a blueprint like an architect.  Consequently, they have no need to document, or explain what they are doing.  They understand, themselves, what they are doing, and they don't particularly care if anyone else understands them.  In some cases, on the contrary, they hope no one else DOES understand them.  They want to guard their work preciously, so they DELIBERATELY write CODE, something UNREADABLE, rather than writing a program, which is transparent to ANYONE.  Hope this helps explain the distinction between CODE and PROGRAM.  regards, tom tobias

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#23 2005-06-19 04:15:15

smiddy
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Dex4u wrote:

@smiddy, if your thinking about porting fasm to your OS and you already have not got this doc you should get it and keep it safe  http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=1972

Thanks man, I downloaded it and have to modify it in order to read it as it is jumbled together. I hadn't tried using MAC style, but neither UNIX or DOS worked.

tomtobias wrote:

Yes, you are correct, and I am wrong.

Tom, are you an absolutist? I have been lucky enough to be away to see the barrage of verbiage. Man you carry one hell of a pointy dart. Is there a chance you can lighten up?

Private communication becomes public once one of you makes it that way. In either case attacks on a person's integrity is harsh in any forum, public or private. I will address this further in another post where you tread on my own.

As for commenting versus not, doesn't depend on so many factors? Let's consider times when you have to meet a deadline, not for the code, but to go meet with that special someone. Your thoughts of the code and your process for getting from point A to point Z gets lost in the myriad of elixir and warm company. When you return, if you return, you may not be willing to comment it; especially when the next best thing to do is right around the corner; that not being coding/programming. Whatever the reason for excluding commenting, there is certainly a reason, which is not probably ripping other's code off, by removing the commenting, but rather the business of the people who wrote it, most likely.

If you can not comprehend a person's code, then it is time to break out the references to the particular area and try to follow the logic, not question their integrity. But, again I am digressing and I don't want to be angry. Tomorrow is father's day and I am about to enjoy it without the stress of angst in my coding word.

The ABC's of programming. That is a much touted subject...it reminds me of process orientation, and what level of process you employ. There are still people who don't want to let the cat out of the bag so readily. They get a sense of security in knowing that they can perform something that no one else can, and be able to be considered the guru in their field. I realize this statement is a setup for holding back innovation. But the fact remains that is how some people feel.

bubach wrote:

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what the heck you wrote above.. tongue

He's talking about a way of identifying a course of action so that others may follow your thought patterns too. Tom has probably had to take jobs where he inherited someone else's messy code and couldn't get the gist of it and perhaps had to patch it to get it to work, or rewrite it entirely. What he is saying is if you can clearly identify everything as you go, then when you return to it you can, after 6 months or more, jump back into it quickly and figure out what the latest issue is quickly. Maintenance of code is a royal pain in the donkey. Unfortunately, Tom has an abrasive way of presenting his ideas, which get on some people nerves. wink

Also unfortunately, I don't think Tom is explaining the difference between code and a program very well. Tom it is evident you have had some schooling or experience in this area. I would imagine not everyone here has and not providing a significant amount of background into your definitions for each will be confusing to those who're not as versed as your are at systematic programming. Either that or they don't care, or some other reason (I almost trapped myself into an either or fallacy, and I can't have that).

Tom I am curious, why did you say the way he wrote his code was [i]piss poor[/i] unless you expected to get a rise out of him? You could have just as easily asked, why didn't you take a structure systematic approach to the problem in such-and-such a module? [i]Piss-poor[/i] is a harsh verbal attack, not criticism. Criticism would be as I pointed out, asking why, how, when, where, someone did what they're doing with their code, and perhaps explain a frame of reference that makes it seem confusing. Am I making any sense?

Because someone doesn't take up a particular style of programming, doesn't make their code, or them for that matter [i]piss-poor[/i]. What the hell does [b]PISS-POOR[/b] mean anyway... What the heck is the analogical reference for this? Is this in reference to the smell a homeless person might have, reeking of urine? Piss-Poor; the alliteration gives it rhythm...that's it.

OK, I’m done with that subject! big_smile

What was this thread about? Oh yeah, porting applications. I thought of a couple others: Pacman, Tetris, for games…DEFRAG. wink


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#24 2005-06-19 14:18:55

tomtobias
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

smiddy wrote:

...
Tom I am curious, why did you say the way he wrote his code was [i]piss poor[/i] unless you expected to get a rise out of him? You could have just as easily asked, why didn't you take a structure systematic approach to the problem in such-and-such a module? [i]Piss-poor[/i] is a harsh verbal attack, not criticism. Criticism would be as I pointed out, asking why, how, when, where, someone did what they're doing with their code, and perhaps explain a frame of reference that makes it seem confusing. Am I making any sense?
...

Well, I think you are absolutely correct, and I was wrong.  However, I did not anticipate this private communication reaching the general public, I wrote that private message in a spirit of forthrightness, having just skimmed his program for a few seconds, early in the morning.  I would not have used that terminology in a public criticism, but I wanted to learn, PRIVATELY, to what extent my comments were considered abrasive rather than constructive, before I commenced a thorough analysis of his CODE.
What I expected him to reply was this:
"yes, that particular bit of code was extracted from [wherever], but I understand it, and I believe that most other programmers also understand it, so I am comfortable using it."
If, on the contrary, he had responded, privately:  "Hey, get lost", then, I would have understood he is disinterested in receiving my detailed analysis of his code, and I would have quietly abandoned further inspection of it.  Some people prefer to work alone, while others profit from criticism, whether or not such comments are volunteered wisely.
To answer your question Smiddy, YES, you are making perfect sense.  regards, tom

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#25 2005-06-19 14:38:35

Dex4u
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Just one last point on this second topic, @tom, I will not take criticism from someone who CAN NOT PROGRAM, you have never made everything, thats why you need to rip other peoples code, and moan if you can not read it.
GO AWAY OR I WILL MODERATE! YOU!, you are on your last warning.
I have always wanted to say that big_smile.

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#26 2005-06-19 14:59:09

smiddy
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Posts: 183
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Dex4u wrote:

Just one last point on this second topic, i do not see any comments in Fasm source code, but i bet he has a fully commented ver at home, like i do eg: this is my commented ver of the floppy code:  http://falconrybells.co.uk/fdd.asm

BTW, I have a copy of it here that I read now and then as a reference. I am struggling with the addition of the formating routine. Should it be in the driver or a part of the FORMAT command/utility? I am leaning towards putting it in the driver, but I won't be diving into that until I have a good console driver put together that can be loaded and unloaded through driver management. wink Oh, did I mention, nice commenting.

Dex4u wrote:

@smiddy, "Privalov" (who made fasm) made a nice tetris game for the 512b compo, which was bootable and fitted in the boot sector of a floppy, as it used only bios int's should be easy to port to your OS.
Also did you get lots of presents , as it farther day ? wink.

I didn't see his entry in the competition. Probably because I was more interested in protected mode stuff. I'll see if I can find it. That's decard's board right?

Well, my two year old was so excellent this morning. He gave me a Tigger card this morning and a huge hug. He's pretty cool for two. My wife made me bisquits and gravy...yummy! smile


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#27 2005-06-19 15:04:06

smiddy
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

tomtobias wrote:

Well, I think you are absolutely correct, and I was wrong.  However, I did not anticipate this private communication reaching the general public, I wrote that private message in a spirit of forthrightness, having just skimmed his program for a few seconds, early in the morning.  I would not have used that terminology in a public criticism, but I wanted to learn, PRIVATELY, to what extent my comments were considered abrasive rather than constructive, before I commenced a thorough analysis of his CODE.
What I expected him to reply was this:
"yes, that particular bit of code was extracted from [wherever], but I understand it, and I believe that most other programmers also understand it, so I am comfortable using it."
If, on the contrary, he had responded, privately:  "Hey, get lost", then, I would have understood he is disinterested in receiving my detailed analysis of his code, and I would have quietly abandoned further inspection of it.  Some people prefer to work alone, while others profit from criticism, whether or not such comments are volunteered wisely.
To answer your question Smiddy, YES, you are making perfect sense.  regards, tom

Kewl! I can live with that...I tend to be a bit more pragmatic probably because I've been around the block a couple of times. However, a word of caution, for later on down the road of life. Wait until you get to know someone before you call them or their code (their girl-friend, whatever) piss-poor. That makes them put their dukes up unless they know your style...

Have a wonderful day!


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#28 2005-06-19 15:07:03

smiddy
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Dex4u wrote:

Just one last point on this second topic, @tom, I will not take criticism from someone who CAN NOT PROGRAM, you have never made everything, thats why you need to rip other peoples code, and moan if you can not read it.
GO AWAY OR I WILL MODERATE! YOU!, you are on your last warning.
I have always wanted to say that smilesmilesmilesmile.

Are you saying you can only take tom in moderation? wink Like alcohol...you can only take so much before you're tipsy. Okay, I'm sorry...I found it funny too. I'll stop.

Have a great day!


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#29 2005-06-19 15:47:08

Dex4u
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

@smiddy, you seem to have court all my edits smile.
I will be put it in the driver, also note the FddWrite floppy command is the almost the same as FddRead so most people use the same function with a differant Command, eg: write sector

If you can not finded that tetris game, let me know, i may have it on a disk some were.
I will be porting a game i made when i first started programming called "SpacePong", it will not be easy, as i write it with tasm ( no fasm than).

My wife made me bisquits and gravy...yummy! smile

I will after try that smile.

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#30 2005-06-20 21:52:40

smiddy
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Dex4u wrote:

My wife made me bisquits and gravy...yummy! smile

I will after try that smile.

We plan on coming across the pond for Hogmany, not this coming year, but next. We're planning on going to Inverness and the Highlands. Perhaps, given the time frame, we could hook up and swallow a few pints (or shots o'Scotch), and in the morning have bisquits and gravy. But alas that is far off...nice thought though! cool


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#31 2005-06-20 23:14:02

Dex4u
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

That sounds great, i will get my kilt cleaned big_smile.

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#32 2005-06-21 09:57:25

jas2o
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Posts: 37
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

If you can not finded that tetris game, let me know, i may have it on a disk some were.
I will be porting a game i made when i first started programming called "SpacePong", it will not be easy, as i write it with tasm ( no fasm than).

I have it (I attached it if you want it). I have most of the comp entries.

Space pong, I played that with my cousin after school last year. I'd like to see it on Dex4u.

Jas2o


Attachments:
Attachment Icon TETROS.ZIP, Size: 2,335 bytes, Downloads: 832

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#33 2005-06-21 11:55:12

smiddy
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Dex4u wrote:

That sounds great, i will get my kilt cleaned big_smile.

I'll have to bring mine then too. My wife and I enjoy midieval festivals and dress the part. I wear an old style kilt, boots, and all the garb...lots of fun! big_smile


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#34 2005-06-21 11:56:16

smiddy
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Thanks Jas2o...I'll see if I can set it up here too.


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#35 2005-06-21 15:43:20

Dex4u
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Thanks jas2o, i will put it in my to port to "Dex4u"folder, as for SpacePong i am thinking about running it in a window in the GUI, it will be smaller than in VGA, but it may look better, what do you think ?.

@smiddy, talking medieval, one of my many hobby's is "Falconry" (thats were the web site name came from, i use to make falconry bells, for the falcons & hawks) and they do not come much more medieval than that smile.

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#36 2005-06-21 18:02:12

smiddy
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Dex4u wrote:

@smiddy, talking medieval, one of my many hobby's is "Falconry" (thats were the web site name came from, i use to make falconry bells, for the falcons & hawks) and they do not come much more medieval than that smile.

No doubt! When I lived in Felixstowe I made a trip to Norfolk (I can't recall the town) where they put on medieval banquets weekly. They chose people for each position, King, Jester, etcetera. It was a lot of fun. I hadn't ever drank meade before then, it was a pleasant surprise. I also went to a Castle near Stratford where there was medieval jousting exibitions...falconry, all the tools of the trade. All cool stuff to me.


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#37 2005-06-22 12:24:07

jas2o
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Hopefully it will look better... But I don't really understand: i will put it in my to port to "Dex4u"folder

jas2o

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#38 2005-06-22 13:53:20

Dex4u
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

jas2o wrote:

But I don't really understand: i will put it in my to port to "Dex4u"folder
jas2o

This is a folder on my harddrive that i put in any program, like games, fasm, etc, that one day when i have the time, i will port to run on "Dex4u", eg: "CdPod" was in there, but now i can take it out, as it has bean ported smile.

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#39 2005-08-02 03:20:23

Nelson
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Sorry if I'm reviving a 2month old topic

My OS is pretty much hopeless due to my lack of motivation (and time).
If I ever got to the point where my OS could even run simple programs I'd be happy

Eventually I'd like to of course port FASM or some other Assembler.
A text editor is a must along with some sort of game like pong or
minesweeper.

Of course this is me just dreaming hmm. I think I'll stick to working on BOS for now yikes

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#40 2005-08-02 14:02:16

Dex4u
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Re: What app(s) do you want to see ported to your OS ?

Good luck with you OS, its a lot easier than most people think to load programs:
eg: first you load the program from say the floppy to say 0x200000
then to run it you would do this:

Code:

call  0x200000

and all the program need be is something like this

Code:

use32
ORG   0x200000          ; where our program is loaded to
jmp   start             ; jump to the start of program.
 ;----------------------------------------------------;
 ; Start of program.                                  ;
 ;----------------------------------------------------;
start:
 ;Do something here    
ret                     ; This returns to the CLI/GUI

Its that easy, you could add more info in the header, but thats up to you, alot of C programmers like to make it look harder than it is :-).

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